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**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-09-2010, 11:24 AM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Actually, there are minimum payback percentages in force at some Indian casinos.

The details of that would be contained in the compact which is the agreement between each state and the Indian Tribes offering gaming in that particular state. According to the Indian Gaming regulation Act (IGRA) a compact must be in effect between the states and the Tribes and that compact regulates what gaming is legal in that state and how it should or should not be regulated. Each state compact is different in how it regulates Tribal gaming.

If you look at the listing for each state on the American Casino Guide web site we do list if that particular state has mandated minimum payback percentages with the Tribes. Most states don't require a minimum, but some do.

I don't think it is possible for a slot machine to have a payback percentage of 50% because I know of no major slot machine manufacturer offering chips with that low a payback percentage. The lowest I have seen is around 82% and that was a rarity. Most machines have minimum percentages in the high 80's.

As long as you are playing a machine that is made by a major name in the slot machine business I don't think you should be concerned about it being set to payback at an extraordinarily low percentage.

**Loser Lambsburg** · 05-09-2010, 02:13 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

The following was received from the NIGC on May 5, 2010.

"
Mr. Garren --

The NIGC does not establish pay out percentages; that is up to each tribal operation to determine for themselves.

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sun 5/2/2010 1:00 PM
To: info
Subject: SLOT MACHINE PAYBACK PERCENTAGE

Gentlemen:

Does the NIGC set minimum payback percentages on slot machines in Indian casinos? If so, what are the minimum percentages? Are minimum percentages monitored and enforced?

I was unable to find answers to these questions on your web site. I am specifically interested in Harrah's Cherokee Casino.

Any information you can provide will be appreciated.

Donald L. Garren"

=

**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-09-2010, 02:21 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

I know that the NIGC does not require any minimum payback percentages on gaming machines at Indian casinos.

However, that issue is sometimes regulated in the terms of the compact between the Tribes and the state.

Some states require a minimum payback percentage and some don't. Each state is different and it depends on what is in the gaming compact.

**Loser Lambsburg** · 05-10-2010, 11:09 AM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

All compacts between the Indian tribes and states were preempted by the 1999 court case "Missouri ex rel. Coeur D'Alene Tribe. Following is information sent to me by the North Carolina State Attorney General's Office:

"I have reviewed and researched your claims concerning alleged illegal payback percentages at Harrah’s Cherokee Casino. There is case law which states that the “Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (25 USCS §§ 2701-2721) completely preempts any attempt by [a] state in which tribal land is located to regulate or prohibit [a] lottery.” Missouri ex rel. Nixon v Coeur D'Alene Tribe, 164 F3d 1102, 42 FR Serv 3d 1127 (1999, CA8 Mo). That is my understanding having reviewed the IGRA, and North Carolina General Statutes as well. As such, your recourse is to contact the National Indian Gaming Commission, which regulates gaming activities on Indian lands at 1441 L. Street NW Suite 9100, Washington, D.C. 20005; Phone: (202) 632-7003; Fax: (202) 632-7066; Email: [email protected].

As to your complaints concerning the Compact between North Carolina and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, they should be directed to the Office of the Governor of the State of North Carolina at 20301 Mail Service Center, Raleigh, NC 27699-0301; Phone: (919)733-4240; Fax: (919)733-2120.

DAVID J. ADINOLFI II
SPECIAL DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE"

There are no limits or controls of any kind on pay out percentages at Indian casinos. The IGRA was reviewed and does not control pay backs.The tribes are able to set them as low as they wish and change them at any time. It is possible to set the machines at any level they want. The slot machine manufacturers have no control on what chips are used or if real time computer control is used for payback percentage. There are computer programmers and chip manufacturers that will make what ever chip that is wanted and program the machines.

I have already contacted the NIGC and the y responded that the tribes can do as they wish.

**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-10-2010, 05:28 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Have you contacted the Governor's office?

The court case you mention is for the state of Missouri which was suing an Idaho Indian Tribe for offering an Internet lottery for Missouri residents. Somehow, that doesn't seems like it applies to your situation. The result of that case was that Missouri lost because it had no jursidiction over a sovereign Idaho Tribe.

I have read stories saying that the 1994 gaming compact in N Carolina may not be valid because it was not approved by the state legislature. Perhaps, that is why they are saying the valid is not enforced? I know we had that happen here in Florida.

Anyway, the gaming pact should give details on what minimum payback percentages are required and how that that regulation should be enforced. I would assume that the Governor's office could provide you with a way to see the terms of that compact. Also, they should be able to explain if the compact is valid or not and why.

Usually, the Indian casino would contract with an outside agency to test their machines to make sure they meet the minimum payback requirements. The largest company doing that is Gaming Labs International.

**Loser Lambsburg** · 05-11-2010, 03:56 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

I have contacted the NC governors office and am waiting for a reply. In a previous post I copied the response I received from the NC Attorney General's office. I expect that is where the governor will go to get an opinion. The response was that the federal court case preempted all states from enforcing any reguations on Indian casinos and that the compact with North Carolina was also preempted by this court decision.

It is fantasy to believe that the Indian casinos and their operators will not maximize ther profits when it is legal to do so. There in no minimum payout restrictions on Indian casinos, it is up to the tribes and their casino operators to set them as they wish.

These casinos have the resources to have chip manufacturers design payout chips for any percentage they wish. They could also have computer hardware and software designers make slot machines payout percentages controlled in real time so they can change pay outs at will.

**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-12-2010, 04:12 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Sorry, but I don't understand the logic in some of the responses you are getting, if they are indeed an accurate reflection of what was told to you.

All Indian gaming is covered by the National Indian Gaming Regualtion Act - NIGRA . This federal law requires that an Indian Tribe enter into a compact with each state before that Tribe is allowed to offer any form of Class III gambling.

That compact lays out the rules and regulations for the gaming on that particular Tribe's reservation. It is entirely up to the state and the Tribe to determine how the gaming should be regulated, if at all. Once the compact is reached it is then sent to the federal governemtn for its approval.

Because of these provisions in NIGRA I don't understand why you would be told "the federal court case preempted all states from enforcing any reguations on Indian casinos and that the compact with North Carolina was also preempted by this court decision."

Anyway, once again, I really wouldn't be concerned that there is any conspiracy to have especially low-paying chips installed at the Cherokee Indian casino.

As long as you are seeing machines made by major slot manufacturers such as IGT, WMS, Bally, etc, you should be fine. I wouldn't have any problem playing in an Indian casino with those machines.

**Loser Lambsburg** · 05-15-2010, 03:23 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Mr. Bourie, you are living in the past. Once a computer chip had to be changed to change the odds of a slot machine. Please read the following, then update your Indian casino payback information:

John Gurzinski for The New York Times:

"Justin Beltram, director of slot operations at the Treasure Island casino in Las Vegas, can reprogram machines with a few mouse clicks.

Mr. Beltram, a casino executive, is the point man in a high-technology experiment that could alter the face of slot machines, and their insides, too.

With a few clicks of his computer mouse, Mr. Beltram can reprogram the 1,790 slot machines on the casino floor, adjusting the denominations required to play, payback percentages, even game themes."

Do you think that Indian casinos with their vast resources and no legal lower limits to pay outs are not aware of and usinng this technology?

**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-15-2010, 04:04 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

What you are referrring to is "server-based gaming."

Those kind of machines are not widely available and I addrsss this issue in my video about how slot machines work. You can see it at - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wkubf1PrWg

**Loser Lambsburg** · 05-17-2010, 12:07 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Mr. Bourie:

You say that "server based gaming" machines are not widely available. The International Gaming Technology manufacturer would not agree. They market server based equipment "IGT Advantage" and "IGT" Casinolink". This technology allows the casino operator to micro-manage down to individual machines, recognizing individual players, controlling odds, payouts, etc. The IGT Casinolink system has 40 customers operating more than 300 casinos. I would consider this as "widely available". Harrah's is one of their customers and the machines at Harrah's Cherokee Casino were manufactured by IGT.

Can you honestly say that Harrah' Cherokee Casino is not using server based gaming machines?

**jgxtrav1** · 05-17-2010, 01:26 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Ok, I've been following this thread .... not sure why ....

Why don't you two just agree to disagree and give it up?

IMHO ===========================

Loser Lambsburg,

It is plain to see that the main point of your rant here is: Indian casinos are bad, don't patronize them!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Trying to prove it as fact is something else. It's opinion and should not be presented as "FACT".

For example, your earlier statement in your original entry that:

"Based on personal experience and online reviews of other Harrah’s Cherokee Casino patrons, the payback is probably well below 50%. This is true for most Indian casinos."

Seems totally absurd .... if that were true there wouldn't be enough business at those casinos for them to stay in business. Gamblers are not that stupid; foolhardy at times, yes; stupid enough to give away their money and continue to do so, I think not.

Yes, that's my "opinion" based on my experience playing at Indian casinos and the shared experiences of my friends (personal and forum based).

So, if you don't like their paybacks, just don't patronize any Indian casinos and "get over it".

================================

Steve Bourie,

It's clear you disagree with Loser Lambsburg's opinion and his way of presenting it as fact; and, especially, some of the "facts" he presents.

You have done an excellent job of refuting same.

I also know (and really appreciate) all the many things you to to suppy our community with great news, information, coupons, etc, etc, etc. I hope this debate isn't subtracting anything from that great contribution to the gaming environment.

I am suprised you have the time (and choose) to continue to debate the issue with someone like Loser Lambsburg whose mind seems closed to any information (or facts) which might cast any doubt on his ridicuous accusation that all/most "Indian casinos are bad, don't patronize them!". He seems to say "most" but then seems to mean "all".

================================

Ok, my rant is over .... thanks for listening (or not).

**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-17-2010, 07:17 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

OK. I will try to make one last statement on this situation and leave it at that.

Evidently, it shouldn't matter to Mr. Lambsburg whether the Harrah's Cherokee Casino has server-based games or regular old-style slot machines where the chips must be changed manually. In either case, he believes that the machines all have chips in them that are set to pay back around 50%. I strongly disagree with this and I will tell you why - for the last time!

First of all, that guy who wrote for the NY Times made it sound like all you do is flip and switch and you can change all slot machines payback instantly. It doesn't work like that with server-based gaming.

Nevada gamng regulations require that a machine be idle for at least four minute before a change can be made. This means a machine that someone is actively playing cannot be changed while they are playing the machine. It is my understanding that there is also another regulation that the machine can't be changed while there are still credits left in the machine.

Once the decision is made to change the machine the screen on the machine must reflect the fact that the game program is being changed. I am not sure of the wording, but there needs to be a screen image stating that fact.

The state gaming commission needs to be notified of all changes to the machines' payback percentages and the machines can only use computer chips that have been pre-approved by the gaming regulators.

Also, as far as I know, server-based gaming only applies to video machines and not to reel-spinning machines.

So, to answer Mr. Lambsburg's question "Can you honestly say that Harrah' Cherokee Casino is not using server based gaming machines?"

My answer is "no." I cannot honestly say that Harrah' Cherokee Casino is not using server based gaming machines. However, again, I don't think it would matter to him because no matter what kind of machines they use he would think they were set to some incredibly low return rate of about 50% to try and get as much money as possible from their players as quickly as possible.

Honestly, the casinos don't need to set a machine that low and it would be a bad business decision to do so. If no one ever wins on the machines they won't ever go back to the casino. Whether a casino has a machine set to payback 50% or 89% the result is the same. If you play it long enough you will lose all your money.

Anyway, you can usually tell how "tight" the slot machines are at a casino by looking at the video poker games they offer. Unlike a slot machine, you can tell what a video poker machine is programmed to pay back to the public by simply looking at the paytable on the machine. There are standard paytables for every type of machine and for non-standard paytables there are software programs that can tell you what any machine is programmed to pay back. All you need to do is enter the paytable into the program and then have it compute the payback percentages.

If the casino has "tight" paytables on their video poker, then you can be pretty sure that the slot machines are also "tight," but nowhere a return rate of 50%.

I live in south Florida just one mile from the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino. I have no problem trusting the gaming machines in that facility. They are all made by major gaming manufacturers and I trust their integrity.

Actually, I don't play slots, I only play video poker and I always look at the paytables before I play. I don't know what the slot machines are programmed to pay back, but I do know that the video poker games offered at the Seminole Hard Rock have the highest payback percentages of any casino here in south Florida. The games offered are better than Gulfstream, Flagler Dog Track, Calder, Hollywood Greyhounds and The Isle at Pompano.

As I said before, I would only be leery of a gaming machine in a casino if it was made by some manufacturer that I had never heard of. Otherwise, I am sure the machines are fine.

Okay. That's it. Have a nice day!

**Loser Lambsburg** · 05-19-2010, 11:05 AM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Mr. Bourie-

This is also my last comment for this thread. If you read the complete series you will find that I have documented my comments with the exception of my estimate of the percentage payout at Harrah's Cherokee Casino. I based that opinion on my experience in playing slots across this country and years of playing at Cherokee, It is obvious that there is a problem at Cherokee. It was clear that the comment was my opinion and not documented fact. Just look at the reviews of "Harrah's Cherokee Casino Payouts" on your own website and on other similar sites and you will find most reviewers share my concerns.

I have also provided copies of letters from the N.C. Attorney General's Office and the National Indian Gaming Commission confirming that Indian casinos have no minimum payout requirements enforced by the national or state governments. You seem to have difficulty in accepting this fact or that Indian casinos may be abusing this opportunity to maximize their profits.

You also can not accept the fact that most slot machines no longer use chips to control odds. Most major casinos, world wide, now use central servers to control down to the indiviaual machine. These include systems such as IGT Advantage and IGTCasinolink which are used by Harrah's. With these systems the casinos are free to choose which player wins, how much they win, when they win and to change odds on all machines at any time to any level-all from the back room with a few clicks of a mouse. This was the subject of a New York Times article by Matt Richtel on April 6, 2006. That was four years ago.

Your web site still list minimum payout percentages that were at one time agreed to in compacts with the states in which they are located. These compacts were preempted by the federal court case cited in the letter from the N.C. Attorney General's Office and are no longer in effect.

Loser Lambsburg

**SteveBourieOLD** · 05-20-2010, 03:20 PM

Re: Payback at Indian Casinos

Sorry, but it's my web site and I get to have the last word.

You write "You also can not accept the fact that most slot machines no longer use chips to control odds. Most major casinos, world wide, now use central servers to control down to the indiviaual machine. These include systems such as IGT Advantage and IGTCasinolink which are used by Harrah's. With these systems the casinos are free to choose which player wins, how much they win, when they win and to change odds on all machines at any time to any level-all from the back room with a few clicks of a mouse. This was the subject of a New York Times article by Matt Richtel on April 6, 2006. That was four years ago."

Well, you are correct about one thing. I cannot accept "the fact that most slot machines no longer use chips to control odds" because you are wrong. Most casinos do not use central servers to control the payback percentages on their slot machines with the filp of a switch. And they certainly don't have someone sitting in a control room somewhere to decide which players should win and how much they are allowed to win.

That just doesn't happen.

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